Paladin

[Dedalus]

PALADINI UDITE UDITE SIENTE PRONTI A TORNARE A CURARE?

Mai fatto altro, a dire il vero (sì ok, una parentesi di tanking ma poi sono tornato sulla retta(o) via XD )

Il nerf ai seal e judgement non fa mica il solletico a protection eh

Eh, purtroppo quella è una cosa che mi fa un poco incazzare: retri è sgravo? Andate a massacrare le sue abilità ed i suoi talenti, non quelle degli altri rami (cmque è ancora da quantificare il danno: magari ci stiamo fasciando la testa per niente).

[Kemper Boyd]

Boh io so che l'altro giorno dal cavaliere senza testa il nostro pala faceva poco meno di 4000 tps. Speccato retri. Non credo ci siano grossi problemi di threat.

[Fenris]

Boh io so che l'altro giorno dal cavaliere senza testa il nostro pala faceva poco meno di 4000 tps. Speccato retri. Non credo ci siano grossi problemi di threat.

Retri fa molto + tps di protection

Per il semplice fatto che ha molto più attack power a scalare le skill (e anche leggermente più +dmg,sheath of light scala meglio di touched by the light perchè è più facile aver ap che stamina)



Il fatto è che a quanto pare all'80 il pala è quello che fa meno threat in assoluto da quando han cambiato shield of righteousness...E dagli e dagli a nerfare i seal la cosa continua a peggiorare...

(Al 70 su bersaglio singolo posso tener aggro giocando con i piedi,bendato e senza tastiera post patch,non è che conti molto )

[Kivan]

Dai fenris, almento tu sei tank e finora il ramo prot ancora non l'hanno toccato pesantemente. I pala retri sono tornati i lolladin che sono sempre stati. Gli hanno nerfato tutto il damage, purtroppo anche quello sustanined con il nerf a JotW, ora si va oom dopo 2 minuti.

1,5 minuti per l'esatezza e senza fare rotazione di consecration

E l'hammer of wrath torna al 20% del target

cambia anche il glifo per il crusader strike

[Bl@ck]

ma sti pezzi de meeeee
una volta che fanno un cambiamento decente ad una classe broken...

[Kivan]

E' semplicemente morta una classe.
Addio.

Su ngi mi hanno fatto sbudellare, postando questo filmato.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPzB8fFBhBk

[Dedalus]

E' semplicemente morta una classe.
Addio.

Cazzate

Siete peggio dei dudu quando gli hanno nerfato il DPS nella Bear form XD

[giost]

dopo aver visto il cambiamente a JoTW, ho deciso: rirollo... :(

[GeeGeeOH]

Hello paladins,

Sorry we didn't get a chance to pre-announce these changes before the data were pushed to the beta. I won't try to sugarcoat it -- these are nerfs.

As I tried to explain before, we concluded a couple of weeks ago that Retribution was doing too much damage in PvP. We tried to nerf the burst damage through the previous changes to Divine Storm etc. Unfortunately, those changes didn't prove sufficient. Not only were paladins still destroying other classes in PvP, but we also found their PvE damage, even at level 80, was too high. Many classes were concluding they were too weak based on comparing their numbers to paladin numbers (and to be fair, hunters and in some cases mages and warriors).

Here are the new changes:

1) Judgements of the Wise: Mana gained reduced from 33% to 15% of base mana. We spent many hours arriving at this number. For example, we did a lot of Patchwerk fights, watching the mana bar to see when and if it ever went down. In BGs, we were seeing paladins able to go from target to target without pausing even when unleashing all of their attacks. While we don't want you to go OOM in a few seconds, we don't want you to ignore the mana bar either. Mana is not rage -- warriors can't typically start a battle with a full bar.

2) Judgement of Wisdom: mana gained reduced to 1% of maximum mana and proc frequency cut by 50%. This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch when the mana provided between the two really needs to be close in order for the decision between Shadow priest and Retribution paladin to be a real one.

3) Judgement and Seals: Damage reduced by 20%. This is the major damage adjustment -- a lot of damage was coming from these. We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

4) Hammer of Wrath: Now can’t be used until the target is below 20% health. Our rule of thumb is that core "Execute-style" abilities work at 20% and talented abilities work at 35% health. We originally had Hammer at 35% based on some other limitations of the spell.

5) Art of War: Increased damage bonus to Judgements, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. I'll report back on the exact numbers here when we've settled on them.

I also want to add that the token Blessing of Might change wasn't intended as a joke -- it is designed so that Battle Shouts won't cancel the longer and more expensive Blessing of Might in a group setting.

These seem like pretty severe nerfs, but that was the intention. It is difficult for some players to ever be truly objective with issues surrounding their class, but in this case we felt Ret was severely overpowered. This was not in the realm of small tweaks to fix (though we did try originally). We overhauled the paladin class for Lich King, so it is unfortunate but not too surprising that the numbers for the dps spec require a lot of iteration. The mistake is ours, not the fault of the player base or beta testers.

Nerfing a spec or class is never fun. It means that our initial estimates of numbers were off and we know that the community is going to react negatively (to put it mildly). But we have to try and keep the game in a relatively balanced state and that is going to mean making decisions that are unpopular sometimes. If you need to blame someone for the nerfs, blame me.

As always, if we over-compensated, we'll adjust the numbers again. But as I said, our initial round of nerfs wasn't sufficient. Lest you fear that Lich King is upon as and you won't see any additional changes, that is not our point of view. We changed a lot in the game and we need to be able to recitfy problems. I would expect early patches or even hotfixes to deal with class or balance problems, and hopefully these will slow down as we get closer to major content releases. But nothing is off the table after we ship, down to rearchitecting talent trees if we think that is called for. This isn't to suggest we aren't happy with the state of the game. Rather, my word that we will continue to iterate on problem areas as they come up.

I also want to stress that we do not make balance decisions based on the QQ of other classes. At most, if there is a pretty vocal outcry that will encourage us to rerun the numbers to see if something is amiss. As vocal, and sometimes passionate and even logical as forum posts can be, they represent a fraction of the entire fanbase and it would be foolish for us to clobber one group of players solely based on the whining from another group.

Go ahead and vent if you have to. We won't delete posts or ban posters in this thread unless they are overly offensive. We do ask that you not launch a thousand other threads so that other paladin issues can still be discussed. Likewise, we have no problem with other classes engaging in the discussion but outright gloating or trolling will be frowned upon.

And I do apologize for putting you through this.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77145&sid=2000

[MazingaZ]

Come dire: non riusciamo a bilanciare il ramo di una classe quindi lo eliminiamo del tutto

[Bl@ck]

eliminare no, stanno provando a bilanciarlo... speriamo che alzino davvero i danni se per caso hanno fatto una cagata.

[GeeGeeOH]

Per chi si lamente delle modifiche a JotW, beh solo spammando Consecration si riesce a minare l'infinibilità del mana, senza in un minuto si consuma meno del 25% che si rignerea con Divine Plea.

In raid >25 replenishment non è sicuro che si attivi sul pally quindi il mana è mano, ma con SoB non si è mai a ful vita e quindi si rigenera altro mana tramite le cure altrui.

Il danno è precipitato... a circa dove stanno le altre classi*.



* la classi a posto, ergo no hunter

[Fenris]

Infatti in raid è l'unico posto dove si riesce si riesce a campare post nerf,rinunciando ad usare tutto quello che è oltre il ciclo base (e vabbeh).

Solo e pvp,è li che si è nella ***** fino al collo (e no,li non c'è via d'usscita che tenga)

We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

Nella patch 3.3 magari

E come possono metter un if davanti a "danneggiare il threat generation".

E' ovvio che lo danneggerà,non serve una laurea in scienza missilistica avanzata.

But nothing is off the table after we ship, down to rearchitecting talent trees if we think that is called for.

Sento questa storia dalla 1.9.









P.s:sul nerf ai judgement,ditemi se non è assurdo pensando che al Blizzcon E nella settimana dopo il dps dei paladini era ok,e l'unico problema era il burst...E poi van a nerfare SoR/SoV/SoB...

[GeeGeeOH]

Quali sarebbero i problemi del solo scusa?

[GeeGeeOH]

I thought we were supposed to be bursty?
Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond.

You reviewed our class last because you don't care.
We overhauled the entire class. We rebuilt the way Seals and Judgements work, and by and large it's a good change. Paladins got a lot of attention for Lich King. your response suggests to me that the correct way to balance the game in the future is to make a class terrible early on and then buff it so that players are happy and excited instead of fuming and disappointed. Trajectory is everything.

I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.
We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.

We think we have your mana in a good place now, but mana is one of those aspects of the game that requires a lot of adjustment and there are many classes right now who would still like us to further review how mana is working for their class. If you're running out of mana too fast, believe me, we'll hear about it and we'll adjust it if we weren't "surgical" enough this time around.

But we don't care about Battlegrounds.
A lot of people do care. And if you don't care about them right now, I'll warrant that's because they don't offer the rewards that Arenas or raiding do. This is something we want to address in the future.

Again, though, we think Ret was out of line in several situations. Other classes are OP in some situations too, and we have either recently nerfed them or are still discussing how we want to address those classes as well.

Look at all the other classes in here laughing at us.
Well, they're jerks. Many of them probably suspect they are OP too and have so far escaped the nerfbat. So far. We want Retribution to be a dangerous class to go up against. We don't want to see BGs with 30 Retadins on one side, which is actually something we were seeing. Yeah, I know it sucks that people say Lolet. It sucks when people say huntards too. That doesn't drive people away from playing either class. We're always going to have some amount of competition in this game, either directly in PvP or the damage race in PvE. If I can read 1200 angry posts from Ret pallies today, you can blow off some inane gloating from warlocks or warriors. We delete the trolling comments when we see them.

Why didn't we compensate Holy and Protection first?
We want Holy to have better dps than it did in BC, but that's a secondary consideration compared to them being good at healing (which we believe they are). We are also still committed to Protection being able to tank anything that a warrior can. Consider that the boss armor changes hurts warrior threat more than it does paladin threat. The net result should hopefully come out equal. So far I'm not aware of a boss fight in the game where a paladin MT struggles. As I said, though, this is something we're working on right now.

Why did I describe our initial attempts to nerf Ret as surgical?
Because that's what we tried to do. In retrospect, we were so worried about nerfing Ret too much that we ended up not fixing the problem. We should have done more sweeping changes initially.

Why did we say Ret was fine for so long?
Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun. We thought and hoped that some well publicized bugs were to blame for the excess damage. As I've said, if I wait to post until we're absolutely 100% certain, you're just not going to get as many posts. Many posters have said they appreciate getting occasional developer communication and insight. But that is going to come with some risk that things are going to change. As I said, I'll caveat it more in the future.

That you're somehow paying to beta test the game.
First, I don't really think we'll ever get game balance to a state where 90% of you would say "Yes, it's perfect! Don't touch a thing!" Second, it's an MMO. Things change. The game evolves. We are always going to be changing things on our end as well. Players would be just as happy as not enough changes as some of you are with too many changes.

You may also have noticed that we nerfed level 70 raiding and that the level 80 raids are pretty easy compared to our past instances. We wanted to make sure we weren't shining too harsh a light on balance differences until everyone had plenty of time to get used to the changes -- more time than even our large beta can offer. Nobody should get parked at the curb in Naxx, and by the time Ulduar and later instances come on line, I predict we will have made many balance changes.

We don't believe you because we've been at the bottom of the barrel before.
There's not much I can do to get you to believe me or not. I try to be honest so my words carry some weight, but I also try to joke around a little so you know I don't take myself too seriously. I don't know how many other ways to say that it sucks that your PvE wasn't competitive in BC or that you weren't a major Arena force. That's not where we wanted you to end up and not where we want you to end up this time. I'm not going to show you my daily tasks or how I spend my time so that you can oversee my progress and make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry. The best thing you can do is point out situations where you're struggling so we can investigate. Most of you haven't even had a chance to test with these changes yet.

You're nerfing paladins because of PvP.
Read my initial post again. Ret PvE dps was also too high.

Our numbers are different from yours.
That's going to happen. We compare data when we can. I think you'd agree that the game balance would be pretty interesting if we automatically made adjustments whenever anyone suggested them.

You said I wouldn't get banned.
You're still going to get banned for explicit language, death threats or the like (thank you very much for those BTW). Try and make your point without resorting to text that will violate the posting regulations. Call me a jerk, if it will make you feel better. It boggles my mind that I actually need to point out that AIDS comments and the like aren't appropriate. If you're smart enough to raid or do Arenas on your character, you're smart enough to know how to make an intelligent post.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...29507901&sid=1

[GeeGeeOH]

im not one to tell others how to do their jobs, but GC, you could have handled this whole situation MUCH better.. that's all i'll say.

I don't want to derail the thread, but if you have suggestions, please share them. Sometimes we need to make changes like this and figuring out better ways that don't shock the player base is useful.

you told everyone at blizcon you and the devs were happy with paladins at level 80, you said that you werent going to nerf us because of level 70 pvp, and that you wanted ret to be good in both pvp and pve, and to be within 5% of other dps classes.

What the hell happened to that?

We saw a lot of crazy numbers coming out of Naxx and Arenas. But when we looked at the data, we saw ridiculous crit numbers and other data that suggested the results were because of some of the bugs, such as the one where re-equipping a weapon could stack the bonus. We fixed that problem and hoped it would change things. But when we started running some of our own tests, we thought the numbers were still too high. We made a few changes, such as the Divine Storm change from Holy, and hoped that would fix it. It didn't. It was a pretty frustrating moment knowing we were going to have to come back out here and tell you that we nerfed you again.

don't expect GC to answer important questions like have you tested arenas? or what about mana burn or viper sting? and what about there being no int on our gear? he won't it's not going to happen because that would expose their nerfs for what they are a total gimp of the ret pally class.

You shouldn't have to stack mana and we don't expect you to put Int on your gear. Judgements of the Wise is still a good ability. But in its pre-nerfed state, we could do sustained dps in a PvE setting without *ever* going out of mana. In PvP, we might as well take the mana bar off the UI because it was just irrelevant to hitting any buttons.

Now I hear that some of you are saying you are having mana problems. Since we're not seeing that, we need to figure out the root of the discrepany. There could be another bug or a raid buff or something that is giving more mana than it should so that in some situations you never run out of mana and in some you're starved. If that's happening, we'll keep investigating and try to figure out why your experience is so different.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...1&pageNo=8#143

[Fenris]

Quali sarebbero i problemi del solo scusa?

Che ti fermi a reccare in una velocità orribilemnte rapida

=ci metti più tempo a fare qualsiasi cosa.

[GeeGeeOH]

A me non sembra che il mana finisca tanto velocemente.

[Kemper Boyd]

What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.

Questo e' il punto piu' interessante. Anche io sono sorpreso come GC. Non mi stupiscono gli whine per i nerf al danno, ma che il mana non possa essere infinito mi sembra piuttosto ovvio.

[Fenris]

Questo e' il punto piu' interessante. Anche io sono sorpreso come GC. Non mi stupiscono gli whine per i nerf al danno, ma che il mana non possa essere infinito mi sembra piuttosto ovvio.

La lamentela non è tanto per il mana non più infinito

E' perchè in pve c'è il rischio di non farcela senza andar oom dopo metà di un boss fight (in realtà è molto difficile con i buff etc etc ma la possibilità resta)

E perchè in pvp se prima il mana non finiva,ora finisce troppo presto e senza consentirti di usare metà delle skill,non se ne scappa (ditemi che non avete mai visto un paladino retribution finire il mana in arena gia pre-patch...Bene,ora la situazione diventerà peggiore)

[Kemper Boyd]

Non ho capito se il nerf e' eccessivo, o proprio non serviva un nerf.

Perche' se prima il mana era infinito, non sarebbe bastato un nerf del 2% a bilanciarlo.

Per quanto riguarda un boss fight mi piacerebbe vedere prima di giudicare.

[Kyo Kusanagi]

Me lo sentivo, infatti son corso ai ripari.
Era troppo bello per rimanere così

[Seph|rotH]

La lamentela non è tanto per il mana non più infinito

E' perchè in pve c'è il rischio di non farcela senza andar oom dopo metà di un boss fight (in realtà è molto difficile con i buff etc etc ma la possibilità resta)

E perchè in pvp se prima il mana non finiva,ora finisce troppo presto e senza consentirti di usare metà delle skill,non se ne scappa (ditemi che non avete mai visto un paladino retribution finire il mana in arena gia pre-patch...Bene,ora la situazione diventerà peggiore)

E sticazzi? Io con lo shammy devo SEMPRE usare il mana shield auto-nerfandomi il danno perchè altrimenti in 20 secondi sono OOM.

Ieri ho killato un paladino 3 volte (era una volta sola in realtà ma tra bolle e altri cazzi ogni volta che aveva uno sputo di vita riusciva a rifullarsi). Alla fine è crepato che aveva 3/4 di mana, io col mana shield up SEMPRE avevo 1/4 di mana.

Tra l'altro presumo fosse vestito di stracci (aveva manco 9000 hp) e il fatto che io abbia pure rischiato di morire non mi ha reso particolarmente lieto.

Cla.

[Fenris]

Non ho capito se il nerf e' eccessivo, o proprio non serviva un nerf.

Mah.

Se guardiamo al pvp è stato eccessivo

Se pensiamo al pve....SE in raid il mana si riesce ad averlo comunque come pare tramite i raid buff....E' stato totalmente inutile,oltre che dannoso visto che quando non sei in raid ti lascia un po in braghe di tela...

[Fenris]

E sticazzi? Io con lo shammy devo SEMPRE usare il mana shield auto-nerfandomi il danno perchè altrimenti in 20 secondi sono OOM.

Tu all'80 hai INT sull'equip
Un paladino no


Tu sei obbligato a tenerti su il water shield invece del lightning
Un pala sarà obbligato a tener su BoW invece di BoM (facciam i conti di cosa sia peggio tra perder le cariche di scudo + static shock e perder 500ap?)

Tu mana spring
Pala?SoW togliendosi il seal da danno? Vabbeh vah,diciamo JoW

Shamanistic rage non dispellabile
Divine plea dispellabile

Se tu finisci il mana puoi ricastarti almeno una cosa che lo rigeneri?Si,il water shield è gratis
Se finisce il mana il pala,puo castare qualcosa che glielo rigeneri?No,costa tutto mana e per il JotW devi anche esser entro 10y da qualcuno.

Continuo?


Se vogliamo fare i paragoni ad cazzum posso farli anche io